A “3-second mindset” tweak for those who hate selling with Chris Skarratt.

Episode Transcription

Den Lennie (0s):
Well, hey guys. And welcome to this episode. Now today, we’re talking to Chris Skarratt from the Cleveland agency in London. I’m going to talk about how Chris started his business years and years ago with three mates. And that’s a story. I think we’re all quite familiar with, you know, starting business with mates and then over time things change and what’s happened is Chris has ended up running the business on his own. So in today’s episode, we’re going to be looking at how after navigating a recession with his previous business, he built what he hoped was a recession-proof business in arts, culture, and heritage. Because even during a recession, people still go to the theater, but then COVID happened. And his industry like so many was decimated, but in the spirit of extreme ownership, he’s going to share how he rebuilt his company and embedded a mindset change to push his business forward, despite the challenges and how he recognized he had to get help and how that has led them to get over his feet of sales.

Den Lennie (59s):
In fact, reframe sales as a service, some real amazing nuggets in this episode, don’t miss it, jump in. I hope you enjoy it. Well, Christopher, it’s lovely to have you guest on the YouTube channel and podcast. Now, the company you run at the Cleveland agency, tell us a bit about that and how it came to be.

Chris Skarratt (1m 27s):
Well, first off, thanks for having you on absolute pleasure to be here. The Cleveland agency. So six years ago, in fact, not, not far off our birthday, six years ago today, we, I got together with some friends. We all had opportunities which had gone one way or the other, and I’d left a previous production role to go to another company. It was a comms agency, which I thought I would be working on production, but it turns out it wasn’t quite, that was more of an account director role and it was a great position and I enjoyed it, but it wasn’t my passion. So I then thought, okay, I’m going to leave that. I’m going to set up my business. I’d had some smaller companies in the past, which had been successful or not so successful.

Chris Skarratt (2m 8s):
And it’s like, right. I want to get back into production. I want to do the thing that I’m really passionate about. And lots of people I knew and worked with were in the arts culture and heritage sector. It’s like, great. Let’s see what we can make happen. And six years later, when I have a successful film production company, working with big west end shows, filming at Royal palaces producing content with the likes of Ray Fine, you know, it’s, it’s been quite, it’s been quite, I don’t want over and uses the word journey, but it has been a journey. It’s been a great journey to get from there to here, but obviously lots of challenges along the way.

Den Lennie (2m 48s):
Well, you know, it’s interesting. I always love to start with that question because it helps to give some context. And I think people watching this or listening to this might think, oh, well, that sounds really exciting, but of course business can be a roller coaster. And when we first met, you were having probably the toughest time ever in your business. Do you want to talk about what was happening and what brought you to kind of, for us to meet and, and why that was?

Chris Skarratt (3m 12s):
Yeah, well, it was the previous business I had had too this one we suffered quite heavily during the recession. So whenever there’d been a big financial recession, we’d taken a hit. And so I thought when I set up this business, I need to have a firm strategy, which will make it maybe not recession proof because then you can do that, but it will be less affected by recession. And so I looked at some figures and it turns out theater, coach arts. They still maintain a very strong position during the recession. People like to go out and be entertained and who doesn’t. So I built this business in those sectors, in those sectors and it was like, great. This is going really well. Two years ago in February, probably two years, about two years ago today, not far off this, I just finished a big production with Sadler’s Wells who are a fantastic, you know, arts and culture, charity and UK theater dance, you know, really, really leading really, really leading lights in that regard message, the bottle big show with the music of sting, fantastic contemporary dance, beautiful show.

Chris Skarratt (4m 16s):
I had a chat with creative director worked with on that. And it’s like, this is going to be our year, two days later, COVID bam door shuts, everyone’s closed. And it’s like, okay, all right, this will be around for a few months. But as we know, two years later, we’re just about to pop out the other end. So all of the hard work I put into building a business, which was, which would be supported in difficult times. I had no one had predicted this. So yeah, after about six months of nothing happening, all the theaters were closed. The museums were closed. You know, there were some things going on virtually, but it was very hard. And I think any business will build in some resilience, but to build in resilience for having, you know, very, very little work over an extended period of time is tough.

Chris Skarratt (5m 5s):
And, you know, I got to a point where I’m thinking, okay, I’ve got to do something different. I’ve got to change. You know, you can’t change unless you change something. And I think that’s, that’s true in life and it’s true in business. And so a good friend of mine, a guy called Tom, he said to me, listen, I’m part of this group called the VBA run by a chap called Den he said, I think you should have a chat, have a chat with Den and see how you are. Because one of the things there’s more than just myself and I, but back then I was a sole trader. You know, I, there the partners, I had gone their separate ways, done their own things, but I was there setting at home.

Chris Skarratt (5m 45s):
You know, the, we got rid of the studio because of costs sat at home day on day. I became, you know, we’d all become teachers. We’d all become entertainers for our kids if you have them, but there are, we’re still trying make this business survive. So we had a chat, we had a really good chat and we talked about the challenges of where we were. And for me, jumping off that cliff was, it was a real tough decision because I knew it would be a financial con you know, financial commitment. But I knew that if I didn’t do something, the business would almost certainly fail. And what I found was, yes, it was a financial outlay, but that was fine because that financial outlay was a building block to bring in more revenue later on.

Chris Skarratt (6m 38s):
And I think you’ve, you’ve talked about this before, you know, Den, how you’ve got to you can’t sit still. You can’t expect things to come to you and you do have to work hard, but you can also work smart. And I think the lesson I took from this was, it wasn’t hard work to sign up to the VBA. It was a smart thing to do. It was a, you know, it was something which I could do start at home where I had time. It could work around what I needed and it suddenly offered this, not just a safety net, but a support group of peers in a very similar position. To me saying what you’re experiencing is exactly what we’ve been through. We’ve been down in that hole.

Chris Skarratt (7m 19s):
We’re going to jump down in that hole with you, but don’t worry because we know how to get out.

Den Lennie (7m 24s):
You know, I’ve heard the expression in business if you’re not growing, you’re dying. And so I think if, if you had a year last year where you did, you know, let’s say 200,000 was as random number, and this year you did 200,000. Some people might think, well, that’s great that the same revenues last year, but in actual fact that 200,000 doesn’t go as far as it did a year ago. And so I think if you, regardless of, you know, the VBA, I think it’s really important when you’re trying to grow a business that you get help from someone because you mentioned the group there. And I think one of the things that I enjoy the most about my job is I get to interact with really cool people.

Den Lennie (8m 8s):
In fact, I had a call with someone today who I knew he could help, but there was a, there was something that happened on the call and it was a bit of, a bit of an icky feeling. I had an interaction with this person previous a couple of years ago, and I’d felt a little bit icky. And then I started to really had that interaction. And it’s just a massive red flag. And so even though we could help him and it would be business, I’ve made a decision to say no, because I know that the measure I have the VBA is would I have someone in the VBA round my house for a barbecue? And if I brought all the other team round from the VBA with the, I’ll be like, oh, it’s great to see you, or would they be like, who’s that guy, what’s he doing here?

Den Lennie (8m 51s):
And I think that that is a great measure, not just in business, but in life. You know, I think for you, with your clients, you should only ever work with people that you really like, because otherwise it’s just, it’s hard. And I think you’re very lucky that you’ve chosen an industry, which is not straightforward and has been impacted enormously by the pandemic, but you have such a passion for it. And I get the sense that you really love the people you work with. Tell me about culture and how important that is for you, not just in the VBA, but in every aspect of your working life.

Chris Skarratt (9m 26s):
Well, I mean, I’m always, I think I know the thing I bring to every production and also to life is like, keep it positive. You know, being positive without being naive is a real balance. You have to learn what you can do it. And if you can maintain a positive, you know, a positive demeanor throughout all of the good and the bad, it really pays dividends. Whenever I started shooting, we have a crew briefing, so I’ll talk to the team and I’ll go, right, listen, we’re going to do, we’re going to act professionally. We’re going to be calm. We’re going to be kind, and we’re going to be considerate to each other. And when, and there will be a problem. And when that problem arises, we will deal with it in a cool, calm kind and considerate way.

Chris Skarratt (10m 8s):
And that sets the tone for the production because you will find, there is, there will be egos, there will be Eagles and all productions. And sometimes it’s the, on the talent side and that’s fine. You know, some of these guys, they are world-class performers or actors, and, you know, they, they have to maintain a certain demeanor to be able to do that. But on a crew, you want people who aren’t going to be driven by their ego. They’re going to be driven by the team and delivering absolutely fantastic quality content. And I think when you say here is a great example, so a great book, and I think one of the guys in the, in the group recommended this Jocko everyone’s family, sorry, everyone’s favorite Jocko were like extreme ownership.

Chris Skarratt (10m 54s):
You know, where do you, where do you take ownership? And the truth is you, if you are in charge of anything, you own it completely good or bad, you take ownership. So by applying just simple principles of I’m responsible, you know, if I’m the director on a shoot or maybe I’m not the director, but I’ve, I bought the production together. So I’m like an executive producer. I am still putting myself at the top of the pile and owning that project so good or bad, make sure the crew know that you’re, you are responsible for their actions, although they are clearly responsible for delivering on their actions, but you have to be, you have to bring that positive ownership to whatever you do.

Chris Skarratt (11m 36s):
And that’s a big part of me, I think, as a, as a, as a producer, as a film producer or a filmmaker, and you can set that tone and that time will then flow down through the rest of the work. You do, you find your clients are going to be more engaged with you because you know, you’re not that you’re not breaking their balls. You know, you’ve got relationships with clients as opposed to a business arrangement and you make friends, you know, and suddenly the people you’ve worked with for a few years, becoming your friends and you’re not going to work. You know, you’re not going to work anymore. That it’s that classic thing, do the thing you love. You never work a day in your life. And it’s true, you know, you’re, you’re finishing a shoot, you rap, you’re going to have a beer and it’s with your mates.

Chris Skarratt (12m 17s):
And that’s, that’s a really important part of, of the business. And especially in theater and arts, you know, everyone, everyone loves, you know, everyone loves what they do. You don’t get into theater, certainly to make a fortune. You know, there is money there, of course, but you get a lot of people get into theater because they are absolutely passionate about the arts. And you see that coming through all the time, you see people working really hard. You see the dedication people put through the pandemic where, you know, it was tough and people were struggling to put on shows, but they would go not just the extra mile, which they do all the time, but they would go the extra 10 miles to get that show. And you know, when you see people do that, it’s, it’s inspiring. But also it makes it really easy to work in that sector.

Den Lennie (13m 0s):
So tell me, you know, the pandemic came, it completely decimated your industry. It just, the river removed demand entirely from your entire market. What did you do? How did you, how did you manage that?

Chris Skarratt (13m 14s):
So a great question. And I was thinking about that this morning, you know, looking back and, you know, in the news today, they’ve announced that all COVID restrictions are going to be lifted very soon, which is fantastic. But I think in the early days we were all just a little bit shell shocked and, you know, we, it was like, okay, we’re going to bunker down. You know, it’s that whole, we’re all in this together. That’s, you know, the blitz spirits, we’ll just keep going through it. And you know, you doing homeschooling with the kids, you know, taking that one hour of exercise every day, those things start to take up a lot of your time, but then you start to think about what happens afterwards. You start to think about what happens to the business and when you run a business that has a direct effect on your family.

Chris Skarratt (13m 59s):
So, you know, a lot of people go, why don’t you focus on your family? It’s like, well, I do, absolutely. My focus is family first, but to bring, you know, security, a bit of, a bit of wealth to them, you know, whether that’s maybe financial wealth or emotional wealth insecurity, you have to have a good business. And I started thinking about, okay, what do I do to make this business survive? We’ve talked a little bit about joining the VBA, but it’s also about having that time to reflect on business practices, systemizing what you do, really understanding the data you had prior to these poor trading years and doing a full analysis of where you’ve got to, because you would never have that time.

Chris Skarratt (14m 41s):
Again, that time over that period was unique. And I think if there’s, I mean, if this happens again, we’re in trouble, you know, I think not just theaters, you know, the world is generally going to be in trouble if we have another pandemic of this, of this magnitude. So I took that time to reflect on what works and what doesn’t. I took that time to work on personal development, you know, read more, learn about business and what, you know, what other people have done to succeed. And I’ve been quite reticent in the past about reading, like biographies of successful people or books that would give you insight into how to be better at what you do.

Chris Skarratt (15m 22s):
And it was a revelation, you know, and it’s, you know, it’s taken all these years to get to that point, but suddenly you’re getting advice from people in your peer group. You’re getting advice from books, which have, you know, multi-million selling books, which have got just absolutely gold in them. And you’ve got the opportunity to then discuss that in a group of people who are in your position. So I took that time for reflection, for analysis, for learning and for planning, positive outcomes for when we pop out the other side. And, you know, at the, in Q3 of last year, we did things felt like we were getting back to normal and had the most phenomenal three months of trading.

Den Lennie (16m 4s):
It’s remarkable how many stories we’ve experienced like that, where that the opportunity that the pandemic brought, went beyond anything anyone could expect, but the preparation you’ve made in advance of it being rectified, man, that you could take the extra work. And how’s, how’s it looking now? I mean, after all of that opportunity to read and be part of this community, how has life changed for you? How has your mindset changed? How has your business changed?

Chris Skarratt (16m 36s):
I think the word there is mindset change. And every time I look at, so you study the business, you analyze the business constantly. You know, it’s not every minute of every day, but you know, you take time to reflect. And what I find is the biggest sticking point to getting things done is almost always myself. So to progress the business, to push it forward, to grow it in any meaningful way that has to come from you. So, you know, we own the business we’re in charge of, but you’ve talked about ownership a hundred percent. There’s no one else here. I don’t have any other business partners to kind of say, right, where are we going with this? And so that mindset change has been the most important thing.

Chris Skarratt (17m 16s):
And it’s, it’s finding ways to become more productive, how to prioritize correctly, how to systemize the things you do. So when, so now I do have other people on board in terms of, you know, freelancers or team members. So I can just say, this is how we do this. This is a successful way of running this particular part of the business. For example, client feedback, you know, how do we make that easy, seamless, effective it’s written down, it’s written down. I can give that to a producer and say, this is how we deal with that particular part. So by changing my mindset from it being just me to change my mindset, to saying, I have a team was brilliant.

Chris Skarratt (17m 59s):
That was our first revelation. And what that does initially you think, well, I’m paying someone else to do the thing I should be doing, but you go, right. And here’s a great example, editing, editing. It just, it sucks your time away. You can’t, you can’t just do five minutes of editing. You’ve got to be in the edit, you know, for a day, two days, three days. And in those three days, the way I think about it is if you have you’ve spun, your client’s wheel up to full speed and you have to constantly know once it at full speed, you can, you can turn the pedal just a little bit, but every time you step away from that to do an edit or to film or to do something else, you know, which is like tools, space.

Chris Skarratt (18m 40s):
Do you know you, you are doing something to contribute to the production, not the business that wheel slows down and the more you neglect it, the slower and slower it gets until it stop. Then you’ve got to put all that energy to get the wheel back up again. And by handing off these tasks to other people you’re doing, which is most of what is most important to the business, which is bringing in work. And we had a great conversation many, many moons ago. And I think I made the declaration, oh, Den I hate sales and you went, oh, one, Chris, let’s just stop there. You know, sales are your lifeblood. And you know, you said to me, don’t, don’t say that, don’t say you hate sales.

Chris Skarratt (19m 23s):
Say you love clients. And it was like, oh snap, just turn it around, change the way you think about things. And in fact, here’s another great example of a book. As much as you know, brilliant insight comes from what we do. There was a fantastic book. I read a guy by a guy called Dave Trott and Dave Trott was an Ogilvy creative. He was a copywriter, a brilliant guy, and he’s got a book called predatory thinking and what it does, it takes stories about everyday things. And it changes the way you look at them and put some into context. So he is all about context.

Chris Skarratt (20m 3s):
How does something play out in the context of the situation? And one of my favorite stories from that, which doesn’t relate to filmmaking at all, but absolutely relates to communicating very carefully to people. What you mean is about swearing and children. You know, you have that conversation. You, I remember I got home to my two doors or was something that top of the bunk bed chuckling away. And I go, Ooh, daddy, we know the S word. And it’s like, no DNA. And I just said it. I said, I don’t, I will keep it clean on the podcast. But I listed, I listed, I read, okay. You know, the S word, but do you know the other swear words and were like, there are other swear words. And I just told them, I told them all the swear words and they’re there on the bed going, oh, what is this?

Chris Skarratt (20m 48s):
What is this dark art we’re talking about? And I said, okay, so now, you know the words, would you say that in front of grandma? And I’m like, no, no, of course not. I said, okay, would you say that in front of your teachers? It’s like, well, goodness, no. I said, okay. So now you know that there are swear words, but you also understand context, the context of when you can swear. And I made a rule with them and I said, look, you are now allowed to swear whenever you, like, as long as you have the permission of everyone in the room to do so. And so you’re enabling them to swear, but you’re putting some kind of a guide on it, but you’re also empowering them. It’s like, okay, I’ve empowered you with the knowledge. I’ve given you the context in which you operates and I’ve defined some rules in which it’s appropriate to use them.

Chris Skarratt (21m 33s):
And if you take those, those three principles and apply it to other things, business principles, because, you know, we assume our clients understand the filmmaking process. We assume they understand the creative or the post-production process. A lot of the time they don’t and they don’t need to know the details, but they do need to know the context, the structure and how it operates. And you can, once you’ve delivered that suddenly your client’s like, oh, the mystery is gone. I understand what we’re doing. And most importantly, you can justify the costs you’re charging.

Den Lennie (22m 6s):
So join us again next week for the second part of this interview. In the meantime, please do subscribe, ding the bell, all that good stuff. And if you want to leave some comments, let me know the kinds of things you want to hear us talk about on this channel. See you next week, guys.